lol seriously? wow its amazing what can make it to the front page

Come on nerds, we do it because we love it, we're nerdy, and there are infinite business ideas out there we could tackle right now. One being making a blog that rallys all the programmers then throws adsense on it. And I've never met anyone who looked down upon me for being a programmer. I've always felt like I am in a great field. Not so much a Doctor, but should always have work.

Dugg down for being too much.

I just don't see first-hand evidence of programmer persecution being so common place. I do see programmers WITH anti-social tendencies being persecuted, but I also see accountants, engineers, lawyers, etc. with those same tendencies being persecuted. I've also never personally experienced career-based discrimination as a programmer, but then again, and I am not an "Alpha Geek". ;)

If you don't get where Chad is coming from, you just haven't been around long enough or worked on enough projects to understand the pain that a good number of your peers have experienced.

Don't worry though: In time, you will. ;)

Well I've been programming for 5 years professionally, and I've never experienced anything remotely close to that. Before that I worked at other jobs like warehouse, phone support, etc, and those are the jobs that people look down upon. Go clean some sewers or spend your whole life behind a mop before you whine about the "hardtimes of being a programmer" lol

Five years? I rest my case.

I've been a developer for 13 years. As I said, I do see programmers WITH anti-social tendencies being persecuted, but, well, duh. Maybe your definition of anti-social is more narrow than mine. I have met many _personalities_ that are looked down upon that tend to be programmers, but that's not the same as the profession of programmers being looked down upon in general. Or are you meaning that chicks prefer doctors and rockstars over programmers?

5 years professionally. lol people

well said!

Have any of the nattering nabobs of negativity on this thread actually *read* the post? From end to end? I can't imagine so, because the comments seem to be missing the point, even for detraction.

@bladefist: Your "five years" of "professional development" don't seem to carry much by way of maturity. To drag things back to the point of what Chad's writing about, what have /you/ done in your "professional career" to improve things - have you risked *anything* to change the cycle of project failure that he describes?

@powerrush: Chad's article isn't a polemic on the plight of anti-social programmers being persecuted. It's about programmers failing to stick their necks out to change things in exchange for "job security", and having our entire industry suffer as a result. In turn, this NIMBY attitude of letting "someone else do it" has contributed to growing business' cynicism about software projects: They no longer believe estimates, expect software to come in late and with features that are half-baked, broken or unwanted. Some regard getting into a software/IT project a bigger gamble than betting your entire budget at the tables in Vegas.

Read Robert N. Charette's article "Why Software Fails"[1] and make your bed: You are either going to do something - no matter how small - to up the ante and improve the lot of the industry, or you're going to shout down guys like Chad for writing about sticking your necks out and proving his point.

CRC.

[1] http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/sep05/1685/

Of course I read the post.

I was tangentally commenting on one point the article made "So, then, why are programmers thought poorly of by society?" that seems a common theme these days, that's hardly "shouting down" Chad. I never stated anything about the article as a whole.

As far as "negativity", expressing a contrary viewpoint is not what I see as a bad thing, unless, you only want pro-article comments? I see the existence of only "love-fest" comments as boring and uncreative.

I'm guessing you are older then me, and a programmer, so, I can't really win that argument because your amount of years in the business will always be more then mine, until you give it up. But you make a lot of strong statements about someone you don't know. Your delusions of me programming VB.net to make a database of poodles with a txt file as a database is grossly inaccurate. And a highly motivated person can do a lot in 5 years when it comes to programming and technology. I digress, you are obviously "Chads" lover and you'll never respect my opinion because im not as "experienced" as you, while its entirely possible I am better then you. eh I'm done with this article. Reply if you must, but I've moved on.

Oy vey.

@bladefist: clap... clap... clap. Bra-vo. Missed the point again, but your empassioned soliloquy was just... inspired. I'm guessing that since you've resorted to personal attacks that you haven't risked anything to raise the bar for the biz - not surprising. While you may have talents and experiences that merit recognition, it's how you've conducted yourself here that speaks volumes about your "professionalism"

@powerrush: Your comments suggested a characterization of the entire piece as a sob-story - which it isn't. And no, I'm not looking for a "love-fest" where everyone agrees. Rather, if you're going to criticize the post, criticize it on its entire merits and not a single cherry-picked point that becomes misconstrued out of context.

First of all, I'm not sure why you seem to be on a mission to paint my comment as some sort of flame towards the article and/or its author, since it is clearly NOT a flame. As I stated above, my comment was a tangental criticism on a single premise in the article.

My comment didn't "suggest" a characterization, you _inferred_ from my comments that I was characterizing the entire piece. And where did I say "sob-story"? Wow, that's 2 more assumptions on your part.

As far as your instruction that if I'm going to criticize, I should not criticize a single premise from an article, only the entire article, I find that all-or-nothing thinking just as boring and uncreative as the "love-fest" comments. Nevermind the fact that you are dictating how I (and possibly others) should criticize articles.

Oh I cant help myself. Chris, based on your resume, you have done nothing to raise the bar either. Purely mediocre work history at best.

@powerrush: You're right, to an extent. Accept my apologies.

@bladefist: You're working on the failroad again by using an ad hominem tu coque. Bravo on finding my resume - I don't hide behind an "Internet Tough Guy" pseudonym, so that's not too hard. But did you read my CV as well? I guess not. In any event, I've done quite a lot to improve my own skills and those of the teams and clients I've worked with - but I'm not the one throwing my swagger around "digging down" a guy for writing about what's happening in the field. So far, you've only managed to make personal attacks - why is this? Have you nothing substantive to offer beyond making snide remarks?

Thank you for your response. Very honorable.

You're hilarious. You made it personal when you said "Five years? I rest my case." You tried to undermine my opinion because of that. You're dreamy.

Also because I'm charitable, I'm going to leave you with some advice. Your resume should be 1 page, not 8. And you should look into a resume template.

@bladefist: I'm stymied - you're doing everything possible to not answer simple questions and have resorted to not just one personal attack, but several: My sexual orientation, and possibly Chad's; my resume; my experience; my ostensible comedic talents. Everything but the most relevant: My arguments which criticize your opening statement in "digging down" Chad's article based on your admitted limited experience.

If anything is amusing, it's how you've contorted yourself like a pretzel to avoid direct answers and instead focus on ad hominems. This speaks again to your maturity which isn't a function of years of experience - but there's always exceptions.

My advice to you is that you will move your career ahead by leagues when you "grow up" a little and focus your statements on the arguments at hand rather than resorting to personal attacks.

Oh, and I really don't need your advice on my resume or CV: Again, if you've been around for a while, you know that templates and formats go in and out of fashion; all that really matters you put on the first page. And my resume has netted me many opportunities - including a rather lucrative and challenging one that I'm starting in the New Year. But hey, what do I know, right? ;-)

Apology accepted.